tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3934801.post5528628508153722306..comments2023-12-30T13:27:56.265-05:00Comments on Billy Ockham: The Episcopal Church Vs South Carolinamousestalkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07640977915382623244noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3934801.post-69505089163325308652010-03-23T09:06:53.597-04:002010-03-23T09:06:53.597-04:00Galletta, that's correct. The Dator thesis dea...Galletta, that's correct. The Dator thesis deals more with the classification of teh organizational structure of the Episcopal Church as it existed in 1959.<br /><br />Wilf, I used to belong to the HoBD. I gave it up more than two years ago when I abandoned it, the Anglican list and the Magdalen list as well. They just were not edifying. The Christians read and respond (rarely) to the latest set of talking points offered by the progressive majority and the progressives counter the Christian arguments by not reading them and restating their talking points.<br /><br />I daresay the HoBD mailing list has done more to both destroy faith and drive people out of the Episcopal Church than any other modern tool. Even more so than EFM.<br /><br />I've been assuming that the Ann who is posting these comments is Ann Fontaine, priest in the Diocese of Wyoming. My apologies if that is not the casemousestalkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07640977915382623244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3934801.post-32276387797602124272010-03-22T15:55:25.550-04:002010-03-22T15:55:25.550-04:00Ann,
If you actually read anything which seriousl...Ann,<br /><br />If you actually read anything which seriously brought into question the analyses of A.S. Haley, you would not be telling us silly things here like TEC was requested by a court to create the Dennis Cannon. This is the type of thing you are hearing from your colleagues on the HOB/D listserv.<br /><br />Small communities egging one another on with circular reasoning create insular mind maps. You're used to reading the same stuff over and over again and then needing to tell your colleagues it is "challenging," "englightening," "bravo" etc. etc.. the more you see it taking jabs at "the other side," but have been blinded to various moral aspects of what goes on there, some of it which would be called hatemongering by any TEC loyalist if the same terms were used for LGBT people or your own faction. You're picking old wounds and going on ad nauseum about the Barfoot memo, the Chapman brief, that old video the AAC once made "Save the Day", etc. etc.., I know from my days kibbitzing that listserv years ago, but I bet you're STILL doing that over there since this is what I see TEC loyalists still making an enormous show about, while I've read each probably five times to try to figure out exactly what it is that TEC find so loathesome about these. And then once in a while ole Bishop Righter weighs in about how he was abandonned. Someone ought to give him a medal or something and then maybe he'll be happy. What you are doing there is very very very unhealthy, you are creating victim attitudes amongst yourselves and creating your own little world of truth shared mainly by HOB/D Listserv folks, diehard TEC loyalists, and the folks that follow them.<br /><br />Do yourself a favor and get off the HOB/D listserv, and I do mean this seriously, it will improve your mental and spiritual well-being. I'm sure you enjoy it, but it has become an addiction - try looking at it impartially and look for signs of the circularity typical of addictive processes, and you might spot what I mean.Wilfnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3934801.post-88042267171313553572010-03-21T23:24:17.173-04:002010-03-21T23:24:17.173-04:00I looked over the Dator study. If it was written ...I looked over the Dator study. If it was written in 1959, it seems unlikely that it would talk about the "Dennis Canon", at least in its current form. I understand the canon was passed in 1979. If that is correct, I would think the Dator study would have no mention of the Canon. Matthew or Mr. Haley, can you shed some light on this for me?Alexihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09222877183938209659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3934801.post-63172111913920052182010-03-21T22:23:17.981-04:002010-03-21T22:23:17.981-04:00Ann,
I've read the Dator study. I read it in ...Ann,<br /><br />I've read the Dator study. I read it in its turgid entirety quite a while back.<br /><br />I've often found that if I'm curious about the law it's wise to consult attorneys. Of course, as I am one that means I sometimes talk to myself, but that can be good too.<br /><br />I'm glad that you found much that appeals to you in the Dator study. Unfortunately Mr Haley does a better job of construing the law on the subject. Which is not especially shocking as he is an attorney.<br /><br />When attorneys consider the merits of a case they look not only to the parties' agreements but to the law of the relevant jurisdictions. <br /><br />Oddly enough, that's what judges do as well when they rule on lawsuits.<br /><br />If I want to know the merits of the Episcopal Church litigation positions, I read the pleadings filed by its attorneys. Which, in fact, I have done. I don't read theses by PhD candidates, which I have also done, and that is time I will never regain.<br /><br />The executive summary: When interpreting law, consult an attorney.mousestalkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07640977915382623244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3934801.post-30483478028455406982010-03-21T22:14:12.181-04:002010-03-21T22:14:12.181-04:00Sometimes I think the entire history of progressiv...Sometimes I think the entire history of progressives in the Episcopal Church can be summed up as "TL;DNR".mousestalkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07640977915382623244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3934801.post-37132205013916811442010-03-21T21:10:50.834-04:002010-03-21T21:10:50.834-04:00Here is a study of the nature of TEC and the Denni...<a href="http://edow.org/dator/" rel="nofollow">Here</a> is a study of the nature of TEC and the Dennis Canon- much better research than A.S. HaleyAnnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287169546184325690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3934801.post-19449463570092590742010-03-21T20:19:24.677-04:002010-03-21T20:19:24.677-04:00Matthew,
Are you aware that the friend who forwar...Matthew,<br /><br />Are you aware that the friend who forwarded you the discussion on the House of Bishops/Deputies List violated the terms of the list in doing so? <br /><br />Bruce GarnerBruce Garnernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3934801.post-72269583836492449262010-03-21T16:48:00.978-04:002010-03-21T16:48:00.978-04:00Alas, when church law conflicts with secular law, ...Alas, when church law conflicts with secular law, church law loses.<br /><br />So there really isn't any need to petition the General Convention in this matter, except for the 48 states that are not named Virginia or South Carolina.mousestalkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07640977915382623244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3934801.post-1490084142061576882010-03-21T16:30:15.948-04:002010-03-21T16:30:15.948-04:00I have read A.S. Haley -- and find him unconvincin...I have read A.S. Haley -- and find him unconvincing - there are much better writings on this subject. The other point is if people are not happy with the canons - they should put forth a resolution and change them - that is how it works in the Episcopal Church. I did not like something - I put forth a resolution - lobbied people to support it - had my facts and reasons. General Convention passed it.Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287169546184325690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3934801.post-61028089791450713082010-03-21T13:44:09.708-04:002010-03-21T13:44:09.708-04:00ok Ann that comment above is a bit persnickety and...ok Ann that comment above is a bit persnickety and I hope you forgive me<br /><br />but please try this:<br /><br />Ask yourself honestly - is this participating on the HOB/D helping me out spiritually, does it have an effect on my life with God? And in what way?<br /><br />And ask yourself that a few times during the course of the next week.<br /><br />God loves you too much to want you to be caught up in all that HOB/D Listserv stuff.Wilfnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3934801.post-13141410600870994902010-03-21T10:54:28.903-04:002010-03-21T10:54:28.903-04:00Ann,
You really should go read A.S. Haley's b...Ann,<br /><br />You really should go read A.S. Haley's blog on the Dennis Canon and you will find that the courts did not request this. A judge, in a rather odd moment, offered TEC some pro bono legal advice about what might be possible, when they were attempting something which was not possible.<br /><br />You should really do something about that HOB/D listserv. So many people fuming about things with little basis in fact - I used to kibbitz years ago but the whole thing made me sick sick sick, and I'm sure it's rather morally blighting for all involved, whether they are aware of it or not. Self-delusion is one thing, but becoming morally outraged over such delusions is neither pretty nor conducive to a healthy moral outlook.Wilfnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3934801.post-32573334157632458362010-03-21T10:51:16.058-04:002010-03-21T10:51:16.058-04:00This illustrates some of why I no longer contribut...This illustrates some of why I no longer contribute to ECUSA. They act in a manner that is rude, illogical, and vindictive.<br />Far from being 'inclusive' and 'tolerant', they exclude and deride anyone unwilling to fully embrace their political agenda.<br />I find the analogy to divorce very interesting and apt. Even more interesting is the ECUSA does not recognize that IT is the abusive spouse.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11252303618948155676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3934801.post-23800378053386333152010-03-21T09:03:49.015-04:002010-03-21T09:03:49.015-04:00I know this about Jesus - and He has -- I continue...I know this about Jesus - and He has -- I continue to follow him. If you have ceased caring and have no anger why do you continue to write about it? Thanks for sharing - no you are not bound but whoever reads and sends it to you is bound and you are abetting his lawbreaking.Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287169546184325690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3934801.post-2534683395763774082010-03-21T09:00:56.121-04:002010-03-21T09:00:56.121-04:00As I am not a member of the HoBD list, I'm not...As I am not a member of the HoBD list, I'm not bound by any of its rules.<br /><br />Any anger I may have felt towards the Episcopal Church has long since dissipated.<br /><br />I will continue to pray that you and your fellows may one day repent and find salvation. Christ is well worth following. He will save your life.mousestalkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07640977915382623244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3934801.post-67552083244557484362010-03-21T08:19:07.458-04:002010-03-21T08:19:07.458-04:00The Dennis canon was passed at the request of the ...The Dennis canon was passed at the request of the courts to reflect their rulings throughout the history of this country on the nature of hierarchical churches. US law upheld this principle before the Dennis canon. Fiduciary responsibility is part of the Presiding Bishop's responsibilities. If the courts decide in favor of VA (the only case in doubt right now) - so be it. The cases are not piling up in that direction- but one never knows. Other hierarchical churches are joining the case. It is our duty to follow our canons. I am sorry you are angry about the direction of the Episcopal Church. It is always sad when there is such division - I wish you well in your future. Blessing of Lent and the Resurrection.Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287169546184325690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3934801.post-22598223276612821722010-03-21T08:09:35.162-04:002010-03-21T08:09:35.162-04:00By joining HOBD you have agreed to the rules of th...By joining HOBD you have agreed to the rules of the listserve -- so your explanation does not hold. Thanks for your thoughts. You or whoever shared the notes from the list are in violation of the contract. I guess it is too much to expect 2000 people to all keep confidentiality. But your anger at TEC has blinded you to your own principles.Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287169546184325690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3934801.post-5866485930090554522010-03-21T05:05:05.921-04:002010-03-21T05:05:05.921-04:00Ann,
Allow me to explain an essential legal conce...Ann,<br /><br />Allow me to explain an essential legal concept. It's called privity of contract. You may agree with a friend to do or not do something. If you meet the appropriate legal thresholds that can be a contract and may be legally enforced. I, as a third party who is not a party to your contract, am not bound by your agreement. <br /><br />If you and a friend agree that you will only shovel snow on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays, why then you can not restrain my actions by that contract. I may shovel snow when I please, or not at all.<br /><br />In some ways the situation in South Carolina is analogous. You have passed a rule, the Denis Canon. Most of the many lawsuits filed to uphold it have agreed with your posture that the DFMS owns all the property. South Carolina's Supreme Court, which is the final arbiter of all matters in South Carolina law, has stated that it does not.<br /><br />Now your able attorney, Mr Beers and his staff have filed a desultory appeal to the US Supreme Court on thin grounds. They may hear your case. Until they do, the law in South Carolina is dramatically different than what you wish it to be.<br /><br />You are faced with two alternatives. You can accept the South Carolina rules as they are or deny that they exist. On the first path lies sanity and peace, on the second insanity. The choice is yours.<br /><br />Similarly here, you can berate me for not doing a duty that I do not have, or accept that your statements should have best been left unsaid and move on. The choice is entirely yours.<br /><br />I hope you learn the correct lesson from this, that the world is not made the way you wish it to be, and are able to profit therefrom.<br /><br />Peace.mousestalkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07640977915382623244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3934801.post-34750929991085432192010-03-21T00:30:09.632-04:002010-03-21T00:30:09.632-04:00Dear Billy Ockham -- it is a breach of the rules o...Dear Billy Ockham -- it is a breach of the <a href="http://hobd.org/policies.html" rel="nofollow">rules</a> of HOBD to post off list without asking permission of the posters. I find it interesting that you who demand adherence to what you believe is truth cannot obey a simple guideline.Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287169546184325690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3934801.post-90542404460238718352010-03-20T21:35:13.056-04:002010-03-20T21:35:13.056-04:00And I find the canonical ignorance of those respon...And I find the canonical ignorance of those responding to Dan Martins+ appalling. It is why ECUSA is in such a mess right now. These people think that they can charge Bishop Lawrence with dereliction for failing to enforce the Dennis Canon when the South Carolina Supreme Court -- the highest court in his State -- has <i>ruled the Dennis Canon a legal nullity in that State</i>! They just don't get it, and I don't get them, either.<br /><br />Thanks for putting this up, Matthew. I may have to stuff it for my "Canonical Absurdities of the Left" collection.A. S. Haleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05108498446058643166noreply@blogger.com